Spinnt German Parcel - (Taschen)-Messer sind Waffen ?

[Gast]

Ich dachte ich stell dass hier auch mal rein - meiner Ansicht nach sollte German Parcel boykotiert werden und möglichst viel "Fan-Mail" bekommen - also wenn die jetzt schon unter Berufung auf §1 WaffG ein Taschenmesser nicht mehr verschicken wollen dann kanns ja wohl nur noch ganz finster werden.

Für freundliche Unterstützung bedankt sich

Klaus

Hallo Forum,

der Vorfall betrifft zwar ein Buck-Knive - ich denke aber dass die Aussage der Firma German Parcel das Messer (Taschenmesser) unter $1 WaffG fallen und von German Parcel nicht tranportiert werden kann uns wohl nicht unbeteiligt lassen.

Anbei die bisherige Korrespondez (in englisch)

Mit freundlichen Grüssen

Klaus

Dear Joe,

pls don´t re-sent this knife yet - seems German Parcel wants trouble - you might want to talk to Mr. Buck to get AKTI involved and should possibly inform USPS too that their German Partner is against all law and regulations harming your business. Not s**** if the NRA would cover such a topic as well ?

To German Parcel,

while even in your Terms of Service "Schusswaffen" are covered and not "Waffen" in general even when using Waffen as part of your AGB your behaviour is still highly questionable. As pointed out already you are dealing with customers like Globetrotter sending lots of knives through your system and that a "Taschenmesser" or "Pocket Knife" does not fall under the mentioned §1 of the german WaffG should be known to a student of law after the first semester - you might want to check that out.

Copies of this incident will be posted in the relevant forums over the Internet - especially the US based Bladeforums and german based Messerforum, the relevant german trade publications have been informed already - as will be the influentel Forum Waffenrecht for the german industry.

I can only wish you well in realizing and correcting your error befor your business and public reputation gets harmed too much - until then I will do my best to give you that lesson.

Best regards

Klaus Stoetzel

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----

Von: Frank.Schwinn@germanparcel.de

[mailto:Frank.Schwinn@germanparcel.de]

Gesendet: Freitag, 12. Juli 2002 10:52

An: Klaus.Stoetzel@t-online.de

Cc: Joe Houser; Lars-Hein.Olsen@germanparcel.de;

Simone.Ammelung@germanparcel.de

Betreff: Antwort: Shipping problem with German Parcel / German Custom /

# 970 408 54 023

Dear mister Stoetzel,

I have spoken to my chief mister olsen again and he told me that these

goods are weapons. The reason for that is the german law, I have attached

you the article for that in german and in english version. Please look

under point 7. here you can find the reason for our return.

I hope this will help you, if not donot hesitate to contact me again.

(See attached file: Law on Weapons.doc)(See attached file: German

Legislation on Weapons.doc)

Rgds

Frank Schwinn

Gruppenleiter Service

German Parcel

Paket-Logistik GmbH & Co. OHG

German PArcel Str. 1-7

36286 Neuenstein

Telefon: +49 (0) 66 77 17 720

Telefax: +49 (0) 66 77 17 794

frank.schwinn@germanparcel.de

http://www.germanparcel.de

Wenns drauf ankommt, dass es ankommt

Klaus.Stoetzel@t-

online.de (Klaus An: "Joe Houser" <JHouser@buckknives.com>

Stötzel) Kopie: <Frank.Schwinn@germanparcel.de>

Thema: Shipping problem with German Parcel / German

11.07.2002 17:59 Custom / # 970 408 54 023

Bitte antworten

an Klaus.Stoetzel

Dear Joe,

Dear Mr. Schwinn,

more updates on that returned 560 knife

I had a long and interesting conversation with the Customer Service Manager

/ Director Mr. Frank Schwinn at German Parcel today after unfruitful

attempts to clear up that shipping problem through the normal Service

numbers at German Parcel. (I copy Mr Schwinn on this email)

The answer I got sofar that German Parcel does not ship any knives at all

is

not the case according to Mr. Schwinn but only applies to weapons (as I

wrote the TOS of German Parcel excludes Firearms from shipping but not

knives) - so while the definition of weapon is certainly different

depending

whom you ask the 560 or 110 Buck Knive would certainly not fall under that

definition anyway - at least not in germany as this exact knife is

available

free of any restrictions (maybe if you are above 18).

The only explanation Mr. Schwinn could give me upto now is that custom

might

have considered this Buck 560 knive ereounously as an illegal weapon and it

got returned due to that. It seems there is no system in place (yet)

preventing the occasional error or miss-rating of goods as would be

possible

in informing the customer to give him the chance to clear things up - also

sofar there is no tracking system in place enabling a rejected good to be

labeled as being rejected by whom (means which customs officer) to be able

to "train" such uninformed officers.

Seems our problem arose due to the combination of the above - one customs

officer intentionally or unintentionally miss-rating this Buck 560 knive as

an illegal weapon - and the in my opinion inappropriate and hopefully to be

improved handling of such issues through the German Parcel service.

Mr. Schwinn proposed that after further investigation he would be willing

to

reimburse me for the shipping cost (which sofar is carried by Buck Knives)

and that he would use the forthcoming replacement shipment as a "trial" for

their system to possibly be improved and asked me to let him know the

tracking number when things get on the way the next time.

As Buck Knives is certainly one of the larger companies shipping knives

around the USA and the planet and with CJ Buck being head of AKTI too I

thought I try to explain things a bit and hopefully things should get

easier

for all involved a bit down the road.

Thanks

Klaus

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----

Von: Klaus Stötzel [mailto:Klaus.Stoetzel@t-online.de]

Gesendet: Donnerstag, 11. Juli 2002 12:25

An: Joe Houser

Betreff: WG: Buck / Strider question

Dear Joe,

more interesting news .....

I just found that the very same "German parcel" proudly claims that the

german Outdoor specialist "Globetrotter" is among their top customers - as

you can guess Globetrotter is selling lots of knives too (including Buck

Knives and they carry the 560 to) and told me that they in fact do ship

knives regularly with German Parcel.

The plot thickens ....

Klaus

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----

Von: Klaus Stötzel [mailto:Klaus.Stoetzel@t-online.de]

Gesendet: Donnerstag, 11. Juli 2002 11:52

An: Joe Houser

Betreff: AW: Buck / Strider question

Dear Joe,

I think things get clearer

In the past when you shipped me knives you went through USPS which then

used

the german forwarder "Deutsche Post" to route things inside germany and for

customs.

This always worked perfectly without any troubles or delays.

Now it seems that earlier this year USPS changed their german partner away

from "Deutsche Post" to the company "German Parcel". Besides being rude and

unfriendly when trying to track this package they (German Parcel) told me

that "knives" are considered "weapons" and following their TOS point 2.3

which states that "firearms" according to $1 of the german weapon law and

"dangerous goods" will not be transported by them. Now this is totally B/S

(not Buck/Strider) IMO and I think you should talk to USPS about that -

they

just can´t change partners and without letting customers like Buck Knives

know about just cancel the possibility to ship with them.

Possibly this is also one issue where CJ Buck and the AKTI might look into

Sorry for the trouble

Klaus

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----

Von: Joe Houser [mailto:JHouser@buckknives.com]

Gesendet: Mittwoch, 10. Juli 2002 18:52

An: 'Klaus.Stoetzel@t-online.de'

Betreff: RE: Buck / Strider question

Klaus,

I have a feeling you will eventually get your knife, everyone in the

"chain"

will know it is coming! The label from Germany does not have a phone number

or a department name. There is a rather long number printed on the label

which I hope will be helpful to you.

97040854023

The box had been opened and re sealed with tape marked German Parcel, zup

1a.

I hope any of this helps. Let me know what you think.

Take care,

Joe

-----Original Message-----

From: Klaus.Stoetzel@t-online.de [mailto:Klaus.Stoetzel@t-online.de]

Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2002 7:07 AM

To: Joe Houser

Subject: AW: Buck / Strider question

Dear Joe,

just talked to the custom office in Frankfurt where all the air parcels are

coming in - they positively and absolutely denied that they would ever

return anything to the sender without letting the recipient know about to

give him the chance to clear things up. They guestimated that the error

either occured with one of the postal services (in US or germany) which

ereounously might have considered the 560 in question as illegal in germany

or with just the US postal service being much too carefull after 9/11 and

stopping the knife already in the US. In any case the return was a complete

screw-up and I would very much like to assist you in tracking down where it

happened to prevent such in the future. As I emailed already in the last

email I would very much like to know what paperwork with probably an

address

or telephon number was included with the returned knife.

So to make my points out of the last emails clear:

The 560 in question is absolutely legal to own, sell, buy, carry, receive -

whatever - in germany. Even if not legal (which is not the case) german

customs would have contacted me to try to clear things up - ONLY after

unsucessful attempt from my side it might have been sent back but I would

except them to possibly seize it then instead of returning - don´t know. I

have no idea so far who screwed up but possibly one freight-forwarder /

post

agency tries to make a "buck" here.

Thanks again

Klaus

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----

Von: Joe Houser [mailto:JHouser@buckknives.com]

Gesendet: Dienstag, 9. Juli 2002 19:12

An: 'Klaus.Stoetzel@t-online.de'

Betreff: RE: Buck / Strider question

Klaus,

The good news is that the package with your knives arrived! The bad news is

that it arrived back here at Buck. :-( It looks like the customs department

in Germany called it "inadmissible". I am having our shipping department

look into this and will let you know what we find out.

Sorry for the delay!

Joe Houser

-----Original Message-----

From: Klaus.Stoetzel@t-online.de [mailto:Klaus.Stoetzel@t-online.de]

Sent: Tuesday, July 09, 2002 2:10 AM

To: Joe Houser

Subject: AW: Buck / Strider question

Dear Joe,

regarding the Buck/Strider price confusion - if you can´t shed any light -

whoelse can ?

Regarding my "new toy" ;-)

Its well over two weeks since you wrote the 560W/BG42 got shipped -

guessing

that you didn´t sent it by Pony Express it should take no more than 1 week

usually - this is what other shipments from US as well as the last shipment

from Buck took to make it here - taking more than two weeks now I fear

something went wrong and I would kindly ask you to doublecheck - probably

things got mixed up in the shipping department as you wrote you had quite

some shipments handed over that day.

The 560/wBG42 should have been sent to Klaus Stötzel, Holzweg 3, 79194

Heuweiler, Germany

Thanks

Klaus

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----

Von: Joe Houser [mailto:JHouser@buckknives.com]

Gesendet: Mittwoch, 3. Juli 2002 23:22

An: 'Klaus.Stoetzel@t-online.de'

Betreff: RE: Buck / Strider question

Klaus,

I took a look in our computer and although it shows both with the same

price, $180USD, there is a note saying the spear point is to be $160. I am

very confused! Our original price sheet shows them both at the same price

too.

Sorry no help here.

I sure hope your knives arrive soon, I know how hard it is to wait for a

new

toy!

Take care,

Joe Houser

-----Original Message-----

From: Klaus.Stoetzel@t-online.de [mailto:Klaus.Stoetzel@t-online.de]

Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 6:56 AM

To: Joe Houser

Subject: Buck / Strider question

Dear Joe,

one question to ask you

depending on where you look on the web the B/S 881SP Spear Point either is

more expensive or at exactly the same price as the B/S 881 Tanto version.

Bucks own site has the 881 at 160USD and the 881SP at 180USD MSRP.

The large versions 880 and 880SP are the same price no matter where you

look.

This makes me wonder if this huge difference which places the small

Spearpoint at almost the same price as the larger versions is a typo or for

real ?

Thanks for clearing this up for me

Klaus

BTW - you see what your great service is good for - I keep bugging you -

(while for a good reason - seems a B/S is the next on my must-have list

though) - just on a sidenote - impatiently waiting for the postman every

day

waiting for my 560/BG42

[Ghostbuster]

also back to the yellow Post ??

Aber wer nicht will der hat schon. Gibt es denn keinen anderen Postdienst ??

Aber auch DPD ist an unzuverlässigkeit nicht mehr zu überbieten.

Ghost

[tar]

Wenn das Messer noch nicht verboten ist, fällt es sicher unter den Anscheinsparagraph!

[Stinkmarder]

Bei mir wurden zwei Pakete mit Messern zurückgeschickt. Mit der Begründung es seien Kriegswaffen!!! enthalten die GP nicht verschickt. Ein Paket haben die zusätzlich noch unter Wasser gesetzt und die Verpackungen der Messer zerstört. Versandkosten sind in Höhe von über $60.00 angefallen die ich in den Wind schreiben kann. Leider kann man sich beim USPS EMS Versand nicht den Versender in de. Aussuchen. Das ist zur Zeit leider GP. Aber UPS funktioniert reibungslos. Ist aber doppelt so teuer.

JENS

[Peter40]

Woher wussten die denn,das im Paket MESSER waren?????

Werden nun alle Pakete durchleuchtet???

Auch Inlandspakete?

MFG Peter40

[Gast]

@Peter,

Es waren in dem Fall Auslandspakete - die Aussage keine Messer (oder Sportbögen) also generell keine WAFFEN zu transportieren (laut AGBs keine Schusswaffen) bezieht sich aber auch aufs Inland - deshalb versuch ich auch so nen Wind zu machen - wär ja noch schöner wenn jetzt jeder Hilfssheriff meint bestimmen zu können wer was transportiert und damit durch die Hintertür uns die Dinge wieder wegnimmt die noch nicht mal per neuem WaffG verboten sind - denn all die schönen Waffen und Munition oder was auch immer müssen ja irgendwie transpotiert werden - und wenn jetzt die Transporteure anfangen uns auch noch zu reglementieren dann gut Nacht. Deshalb hab ich die Sache ja auch hier gepostet, Uli vom Visier hat denen auch schon gemailt, Dr. Kohlheim vom DSB hab ich auch mal informiert (wegen Sportbögen) und RA Streitberger (FWR) will sich auch drum kümmern - Schillerdoc müste über Uli E. und Matthias R. auch schon Bewcheid wissen.

Ich denke hier ist nach den Aktionen ums NovlWaffG (oder wie auch immer das heisst) eine neue Email-Schwemme an die Leute angebracht - wenn das nicht gestoppt wird transportieren wir demnächst (und nicht nur im Import) alles nur noch per privatem Pony-Express.

@Stinkmarder - zur Zeit werden von USPS nur die Air "Parcels" über German Parcel geleitet, Air "Letter" und Sea/Land "Parcel" noch über die gute alte gelbe Post - ist in jedem Fall billiger als UPS.

Klaus

[Smithy]

Mal ne "dumme" Frage weil ich mit Zoll ect. keine Ahnung habe:

Ich musste mal meine Hämmerli in die Schweiz zurückschicken. Ich habe damals als Paketinhalt "Werkzeuge und Maschinenteile" angegeben. Das war weniger aus euren Gründen sondern mehr aus Sicherheitsgründen.

Geht denn sowas mit den Messern nicht?

PS: Wenn nicht, nicht schimpfen, nur aufklären weil ich da wirklich keine Ahnung hab.

[Stinkmarder]

Heute habe ich ein LEUPOLD bekommen. Über USPS EMS und ausgliefert von GP.

Ohne Probleme.

@Smithy, Falschdeklaration ist glaube ich auch nicht so toll. Aber umschreiben hilft auch. ZB. Campimgtools. Da kann keiner was gegen sagen.

@Klaus+, und wie lange dauert das??? So lange warten möchte ich dann auch nicht.

JENS

[Mike Brauer]

Zitat:

---

Original erstellt von Smithy:

Mal ne "dumme" Frage weil ich mit Zoll ect. keine Ahnung habe:

Ich musste mal meine Hämmerli in die Schweiz zurückschicken. Ich habe damals als Paketinhalt "Werkzeuge und Maschinenteile" angegeben.

---

Also ich hätte es als Sportgerät deklariert

------------------

Lebenslänglich FWR#1911, in diesem Jahr geworbene Neumitglieder: 6, jetzt Du!

Together we stand, divided we fall

[Dieser Beitrag wurde von Mike Brauer am 16. Juli 2002 editiert.]

[Ulrich Eichstädt]

Zur Info: German Parcel hat flott auf die VISIER-Anfrage geantwortet (auf Englisch!!)

siehe http://www.visier.de/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimateb...ic&f=1&t=001108 , dort ganz unten.

[Gast]

@Uli - auch hier nochmal herzlichen Dank für Deine Unterstützung

@Mike - LOL

@Jens - Air-"Letter" ist auch nicht langsamer als Air-"Parcel" - Land/Sea-Parcel sind aber 6 Wochen.

Es geht ja auch nicht drum wie wir was (falsch oder clever oder wie auch immer) deklarieren sondern ob wir es zulassen dass jetzt schon Transporteure meinen über uns bestimmen zu können. Mal schauen ob Visier & FWR & DSB da noch was machen wollen oder können.

Gruss

Klaus

[Holländer]

Zitat:

---

Original erstellt von Ulrich Eichstädt:

Zur Info: German Parcel hat flott auf die VISIER-Anfrage geantwortet (auf Englisch!!)

siehe

http://www.visier.de/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimateb...ic&f=1&t=001108

, dort ganz unten.

---

Die heissen ja auch German Parcel und nicht Deutsches Paket.

Adriaan