Its good to be anti-Islam

[Gast]

True words. I wish I had command of the English language as much as Pat does.

[Gast]

command?

[Gast]

Yep

[Balu der Bär]

True words. I wish I had command of the English language as much as Pat does.

So true......

[bleivorbei]

Geht's wieder los?

Da wird religiöser Fanatismus mit einer ganzen Religion gleichgesetzt - von der man keine Ahnung hat.

Widerlich.

Die Sufis waren und sind ganz gräßliche Barbaren, gell?

... und weiter gruselt man sich herrlich vorm bösen Muselman.

[Balu der Bär]

Geht's wieder los?

Da wird religiöser Fanatismus mit einer ganzen Religion gleichgesetzt - von der man keine Ahnung hat.

Widerlich.

Die Sufis waren und sind ganz gräßliche Barbaren, gell?

... und weiter gruselt man sich herrlich vorm bösen Muselman.

Please mind, that this is the english- spoken corner of this discussion board.

BTW:

Neither, you didn´t comprehend, nor you watched the video in it´s entirety, which would you have enabled to see the intention of the video.

[M62]

Geht's wieder los?

Da wird religiöser Fanatismus mit einer ganzen Religion gleichgesetzt - von der man keine Ahnung hat.

Vielleicht solltest Du Dich mal besser informieren:

"...dass sich der religiöse Faschismus im Islam nicht erst mit dem Aufstieg der Muslim-Brüderschaft ausgebreitet hat. Meiner Meinung nach ist er im Islam selbst begründet, nämlich als der Prophet Mohammed den Islam als Monokultur durchsetzte."

http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/mursi-verbuendeter-mordaufruf-gegen-publizist-abdel-samad-a-904619.html

[bleivorbei]

Please mind, that this is the english- spoken corner of this discussion board.

Oh - too sorry.

Still i stand by what i said, which translates like this:

... here we go again.

Putting religious fanatism on one level with a whole religion, you have no idea about - it's disgusting.

The sufis were too barbaric, aren't they?

Just keep on happily fearing the evil muslim.

BTW:

Neither, you didn´t comprehend, nor you watched the video in it´s entirety, which would you have enabled to see the intention of the video.

Yes, i did watch through the whole polemic thing. And granted his needling is hitting some very week points of what people abuse islam for - you wanna tell me, this thread is not one more stupid islamophobic repetition of the same thing over and over again?

I am up for a surprise - but i doubt it!

Best regards

[Gast]

You should listen to Pat, he describes exactly what Islam is all about. Read the Quran ans you will find out, that all the fundamental atrocities ISIS is performing is the basic quintessence of this religion.

[Balu der Bär]

Yes, i did watch through the whole polemic thing. And granted his needling is hitting some very week points of what people abuse islam for - you wanna tell me, this thread is not one more stupid islamophobic repetition of the same thing over and over again?

I am up for a surprise - but i doubt it!

Best regards

Well that´s your standpoint. No doubt.

But let me ask a couple of questions first, which shouldn´t be a problem for you to be answered and to be founded on sourced facts:

• Who is actually the highest ranking Clergy within Islam ?
• Please name at least a dozen islamic countries ( without using Google, Bing and Yahoo ) which are famous due to their religious tolerance and their long history of freedom of speech ?
• Name the last 20 ground breaking inventions made by islamic countries ?
• Why are Muslims the ethnic group, which is prone to have problems in regards to integration, violence and intolerance?
• The CDHRI is not granting any human rights, equalizing human dignity instead. Why?

These are 5 basic questions, which shouldn´t take more than 5 minutes to answer, without the use of google. Given the fact, that your reply should be founded on facts, I am looking forward for your reply.....

Oh, some video to watch again:

[bleivorbei]

But let me ask a couple of questions first, which shouldn´t be a problem for you to be answered and to be founded on sourced facts:

• Who is actually the highest ranking Clergy within Islam ?
• Please name at least a dozen islamic countries ( without using Google, Bing and Yahoo ) which are famous due to their religious tolerance and their long history of freedom of speech ?
• Name the last 20 ground breaking inventions made by islamic countries ?
• Why are Muslims the ethnic group, which is prone to have problems in regards to integration, violence and intolerance?
• The CDHRI is not granting any human rights, equalizing human dignity instead. Why?

These are 5 basic questions, which shouldn´t take more than 5 minutes to answer, without the use of google. Given the fact, that your reply should be founded on facts, I am looking forward for your reply.....

Nice try Balu.

Don't really feel like playing question and answer.

Or is it more an attempt to shut me up - so you can enjoy your islamophobia untroubled?

Polemics don't get better, if you put numbers in front and questionmarks in behind!

Instead i have been contemplating a bit.

You know what is most enjoyable about you guys?

You rage about how all muslims are talibanesque - and miss completely how you are the same.

You want to find an infidel - your infidel is muslim - and then you wanna cut throats.

It happens so easily - what you fear in others is yourself.

Just a lack of selfreflection.

Bearbeitet 15. März 2015 von bleivorbei

[Balu der Bär]

Nice try Balu.

Thx anyway.

Don't really feel like playing question and answer.

Well if my questions are a game only, it would have been too easy for you, to dismantle them, or? You seem to prefer to launch some semantic decoys instead.

Or is it more an attempt to shut me up - so you can enjoy your islamophobia untroubled?

Polemics don't get better, if you put numbers in front and questionmarks in behind!

Shutting you up?No, cos I have no right for doing so. Polemics weren´t here to be improved, questions were here to be answered by yourself. The self reflection, mentioned in your post, only kicks in, if I have an external view, which you failed to provide, obviously. In this case, you reduce your argumentation to accusations and polemics.

You know what is most enjoyable about you guys?

You rage about how all muslims are talibanesque - and miss completely how you are the same.

You want to find an infidel - your infidel is muslim - and then you wanna cut throats.

It happens so easily - what you fear in others is yourself.

Just a lack of selfreflection.

Well this could be true, if I was a follower of the christian belief or any kind of belief.

Just for the record:

I am a follower of secular humanism. I like to employ science, common sense, naturalistic phliosophies etc. for solving nowadays problems. This implies, I deeply reject any religion ( not beliefs). Religions are prone to instrumentalize peoples fears, sterotypes etc.

The advantage of being an atheist like me is, that I am free of ethics of conviction. I prefer to utilize ethics of responsibility, which itself are based on logic and not following an agenda of any kind. Furthermore, I don´t fear Islam itself, it is the outcome, what the followers of this religious belief making out of it. And there is the point, where religion is corrupted into politics.

Right from the start of this year, islamic groups have ammassed a death count of more than 2500 victims.

Just a little reminder: Boko Haram have done a "great job" of spreading islamic belief in their country, or? ( I sincerly hope, you recognize the irony within)

A quick visit at Human Rights Watch will show you instantly how peaceful their deeds are in the name of Islam.

And for a religion of peace, there are many people to be found killed, but you won´t mention that at a cocktail party, or?

Self reflection? Ok let us reflect a little bit:

I am not aware of any public executions of gay people in western states, utilizing construction cranes.

Seven countiries on this planet still convicting lesbian, gay and bisexual people to death for same sex activities:

• Iran
• Mauritania
• Yemen
• Saudi- Arabia
• UAE
• Nigeria
• Sudan

I leave it up to you, what common ground these countries share. If you don´t feel like Q&A again, I am glad to help you out: It is the state religion, on which these verdicts are justified and based on.

To be honest: I have nothing against this particular belief itself, I just don´t know enough about it.

But if the radicals are only a minority, then I would like to conclude, it is about time for the muslims worldwide, to start tightening up their own shit and declare a fatwa upon these bastards within their community, draggin´ their own religion into the gutter.

I don´t like women to be executed for adultery, i don´t like young girls forced into marriage with a 80 year old sugar daddies under islamic justification.

Why is pre marriage sex haram and forcing an eleven years old girl into marriage to perform her sexual duties as a wife halal?

You see, I like to question everything and worship nothing.

You gotta understand first: Respect must be earned, it is not to be demanded. From a logical standpoint there is no reason and no sensible intention to respect a religion, who violates basic human rights. And the CDHRI from 1990 is a clear hint, that these guys want to segregate rather than integrate.

United Nations estimates for honor killing ranging up to 5000 victims per year. No one from the corner of people defending Islam seems to care. And here in Germany there is an outrage, when a group of mentally and politically deranged guys and one girl --> NSU ( all of them completely beyond mental ) going on a killing spree.

See the difference??

Still don´t feel to do Q&A or would it be justified to use the word hypocrite here??

Religion is a private matter. That means, it is for your head, for your home and for your church or temple or mosque.

This means in return, keep it away from other people´s life, out of politics, out of society, out of the government. Period.

Or even more simplified:

God is an individual construct, god is a personal concept. Keep your personal projection of god cognitively locked away.

And that is only Islam to be covered. Most of all religions are not better. They just have different timelines.

Instead doing Q&A you prefered to demonize my standpoint, evaded my questions, diagnosed me with islamophobia.

What is your phobia? Hereiophobia, Enissophobia?

Before you reach a verdict, you should have a conversation with the delinquent first ( in this case my humble me) before making any judgements on other people´s sanity. I refuse myself the right to shut you up. In return, you took your own moral superiority for granted. Once thus given, you reached your verdict without a due and logical process. This holier-than-thou attitude is also very common among religions.

This attitude lead to the Paris shooting, or am I wrong? Some artist produced some cartoons putting Mohamed and Allah in focus. Some lunatics were offended and shoot the whole office and it´s occupants up. Where did they get their morale from?

And if you dare to risk, to support your very own standpoint ( which provided you the morale to diagnose other people with a phobia) it only take 1 minute to explain, why Islam is religion of peace.

And no, I am not islamophobic. I fear the moment, when religion becomes law.

[Gast]

Balu, great statements an I am completly with you. My statment is shorter: I am Anti-Islam because Islam is Anti-Me. Me and the values of our civilisation, that stand behind me.

My ancstors helped to stop the siege of Vienna in 1683, earned their nobility from the king and kept Islam out of Europe for good reasons. The day will come when the European nations made up their mind and start the "Reconquista" again. Last time it took us 800 years so: the earlier we start - the better.

[M62]

Again, this is the ENGLISH LANGUAGE forum.

You either get it or stay out!

Bearbeitet 16. März 2015 von JuergenG

[Balu der Bär]

Balu, great statements an I am completly with you. My statment is shorter: I am Anti-Islam because Islam is Anti-Me. Me and the values of our civilisation, that stand behind me.

My ancstors helped to stop the siege of Vienna in 1683, earned their nobility from the king and kept Islam out of Europe for good reasons. The day will come when the European nations made up their mind and start the "Reconquista" again. Last time it took us 800 years so: the earlier we start - the better.

Thank you.

But I go for the extra mile in rejecting any man made religion ( btw. there is nothing else in religious business than man- made).

I don´t reject and oppose the personal belief of the individual.

Whatever you do in day to day life, one must not forget:

Common Sense is King!

I once had a discussion with our local priest. He urged to prove my atheist theories. My reply was: Prove first that there is actually any god.

The look of his face was pricleless. For all other things there are the credit cards......

[Gast]

Thats our difference, I am a believer in chistian ethics.

BTW, did you know that the old testamony eye for an eye postulate is quite modern? Its not for revenge, it demands, that the verdict has to be balanced. If one bashes out a tooth of you the verdict can't be death punishment or chopping off a limbbut requires a same level punishment or a time out (jail) or financial compensation of same strength. These are basics of modern juristiction. Quite the contrary to Islam where beheading is punishment for even beeing born into the wrong part of town,having the wrong parents or laughing to the wrong jokes.

[bleivorbei]

Balu, you make my day!

That is a looong post.

Well this could be true, if I was a follower of the christian belief or any kind of belief.

Just for the record:
I am a follower of secular humanism. I like to employ science, common sense, naturalistic phliosophies etc. for solving nowadays problems. This implies, I deeply reject any religion ( not beliefs). Religions are prone to instrumentalize peoples fears, sterotypes etc.

Mhh, well, it appears Muslim is the perfect secular humanitarians infidel.

And secular humanitarism don't seem to be any less prone to - ähem - instrumentaiize peoples fears and stereotypes. That was one of my main points to start writing here. The video you applauded is nothing else.

I am a follower of secular humanism. I like to employ science, common sense, naturalistic phliosophies etc. for solving nowadays problems. This implies, I deeply reject any religion ( not beliefs). Religions are prone to instrumentalize peoples fears, sterotypes etc.

The advantage of being an atheist like me is, that I am free of ethics of conviction. I prefer to utilize ethics of responsibility, which itself are based on logic and not following an agenda of any kind.

That sounds really good - but not following an agenda - seriously? It is rare to find people without a hidden agenda, yet without any agenda - that would make more than my day.

Ethics of responsibility? You seem to forget the responsability of 'western secular humanism'. If that hadn't waged war in Irak - right, i forgot that was about weapons of mass destruction not about oil - ISIS would't even be there. You are so good with numbers - what was the death toll for this? Upps, it is still rising.

And there is the point, where religion is corrupted into politics.

Very valid point - now we are talking: politics - not religion.

I don't think, it would be difficult to agree about the politics of ISIS and Boku Haram.

I am not aware of any public executions of gay people in western states, utilizing construction cranes.

No, western states use cluster bombs, laser guided munition and drones on completely innocent people - collateral damage.

Man, that's what i call ethic superiority.

To be honest: I have nothing against this particular belief itself, I just don´t know enough about it.

I honour that admittance!

Why do you then applaud the video, bashing Islam left, right and middle, like there were no other aspects?

But if the radicals are only a minority, then I would like to conclude, it is about time for the muslims worldwide, to start tightening up their own shit and declare a fatwa upon these bastards within their community, draggin´ their own religion into the gutter.

I don´t like women to be executed for adultery, i don´t like young girls forced into marriage with a 80 year old sugar daddies under islamic justification.

Good idea - i completely agree on this. A fatwa upon Jihad!

Religion is a private matter. That means, it is for your head, for your home and for your church or temple or mosque.
This means in return, keep it away from other people´s life, out of politics, out of society, out of the government.

Agreed - but is has to be a two way deal. Let's also keep politics and govermnet out of people's head, home and place of worship.

My phobia? I fear fear - it makes you act without proper reflection of consequence.

... you prefered to demonize my standpoint...

Before you reach a verdict, you should have a conversation with the delinquent first ( in this case my humble me) before making any judgements on other people´s sanity. I refuse myself the right to shut you up. In return, you took your own moral superiority for granted. Once thus given, you reached your verdict without a due and logical process. This holier-than-thou attitude is also very common among religions.

My bad - how about you grant more than one fourth of world population the same opportunity.

... and never mind, before religion becomes law, i guess, we meet in the trenches.

Best regards

[bleivorbei]

No one giving me heat anymore?

What's up guys, that's all you had?

Let's hear what the president of the united states has to say about this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2a01Rg2g2Z8#t=11m42

You get how funny this is?

I'm almost peeing my pants.

Good night.

[Balu der Bär]

No one giving me heat anymore?

What's up guys, that's all you had?

Let's hear what the president of the united states has to say about this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2a01Rg2g2Z8#t=11m42

You get how funny this is?

I'm almost peeing my pants.

Good night.

Sorry for having a real life. No reason to get smart here....

I also got the fun part of your statement above, that the man who often bypasses Congress and some other parts of the legeslative protocol, seems to act like a sponsor and judge all at the same time. Wasn´t this the President, who wanted to bomb Syria in order to restore human rights, which aren´t compatible to the human rights defined in the CDHRI from 1990? Is that the same president, who doesn´t trust his own people for owning firearms, now wants to sign a nuclear deal with Iran?

This president looks like a deer in the headlights to many people, everytime a new international problem arises.

He speaks of unintended consequences??

Ok, Bush wasn´t even better, but the withdrawl of allied forces in Iraq was conducive to the rise of IS. Now with the 60 country coalition he wants to slowly push IS out of Iraq. Interesting. Where to and how??

He mentioned himself, that missing education, missing opportunities are to be blamed for radiacalized Muslims who turns into Islamists. He indirectly blames religious processes for that.

Klick here for the statement

Funny is also the fact, that he mentioned Libya. Wasn´t he the Commander In Chief, when they bombed the shit out of Gaddafi??

He is also pushing the point of education. Interesting. What kind of education?? Beware of secular humanism.

This is gonna be a joy to behold....

Yeah, you are absolutely right, this is so funny, that I am close to be flabbergasted.

Mhh, well, it appears Muslim is the perfect secular humanitarians infidel.

And secular humanitarism don't seem to be any less prone to - ähem - instrumentaiize peoples fears and stereotypes. That was one of my main points to start writing here. The video you applauded is nothing else.

No. With this statement you proved instantly, that you are far away from understanding humanistic principles.

As far as I´m concerned, they could run their Islamistic State down there. I wouldn´t care at all. The problem is, that they are going out on a mission to spread their believe by force.

Btw. your list of islamic states, which have a long and extensive history of the freedom of religions is still missing here. Why are you keeping this door to enlightment shut??

Why do you then applaud the video, bashing Islam left, right and middle, like there were no other aspects?

The points which are outlined in the video of Mr. Connell will fit on any militant religion. That´s why. And I am currently not aware, if Christians or Hindus or Buddhists were recently flying airliners into tall buildings or commiting suicide attacks in western states. If you can provide some intel on other groups than islamic ones, this will be greatly appriciated.

I tried to find any incidents, which could fit to any religious believe besides Islam and I was forced to put the ballpen aside, because it was kinda narrowed down to the Islamists.

You also tend to mix up bashing with fierce criticism. You weren´t able so far, to falsify any of the points mentioned by Mr. Connell and the guys here in this forum labeled by yourself as Islamophobics.

You failed to provide any evidence for your statements.

One piece of advise: Never forget the first rule of holes. If you are in one, stop digging!!!

Agreed - but is has to be a two way deal. Let's also keep politics and govermnet out of people's head, home and place of worship.

No politics and government have to be in peoples mind on a mandatory basis. With no one thinking about this, how can one take part in an election? Or be a citizen in a democracy? Please don´t express the need to have a lecture on that.....

If a individual wants to be a kept man, then he doesn´t need to be bothered with politics and government affairs. That is absolutely right.

Here in the western states, we use for this principle the mainstream media. Remember the extensive, bloody well researched and sourced background informations on firearms.....

The same principles are to be followed in the IS. Everyone has to swallow the preaches of the Mullah and believe him without verifying them, and everything is gonna be AOK??

Is it that what you are trying to propose here?? Do you also have the german newspaper "BILD" on your subscription list?

My phobia? I fear fear - it makes you act without proper reflection of consequence.

You fear fear?? Interesting. Rather than cultivating a phobia, I tend to iron out the circumstances which are making me feel frightened.

This implies the necessity, that I recognize my freedom and the duties and the rights which come with it. Any threat to these- in form of religious bigots for instance - have to be considered and the necessary corrective actions are to be taken.

I said it once before:

I have no objections at all against any religious believe. There are good christians, muslims, hindus, buddhists. No doubt about it. But how you can differ between a radical follower and the normal one?

Easy to be answered:

The good ones keep the belief out of society, out of government, out of school, out of the workplace.

In other words: They don´t take their believe too seriously. They keep it checked and balanced with common sense and humanistic elements.

Personal note:

In regards to your signature:

I am not fond to give up any freedom of our society just to provide any socio- cultural commodities to a minority, which doesn´t accept our way of life and our principles to its entirety.

Enough heat??

Bearbeitet 17. März 2015 von Balu der Bär

[carsten1911]

Nice try Balu.

Don't really feel like playing question and answer.

Or is it more an attempt to shut me up - so you can enjoy your islamophobia untroubled?

Polemics don't get better, if you put numbers in front and questionmarks in behind!

Instead i have been contemplating a bit.

You know what is most enjoyable about you guys?

You rage about how all muslims are talibanesque - and miss completely how you are the same.

You want to find an infidel - your infidel is muslim - and then you wanna cut throats.

It happens so easily - what you fear in others is yourself.

Just a lack of selfreflection.

Dear Bleivorbei,

your post is a mixture of negative projection (nobody in this thread said they wanted to cut throats....instead people pointed out that cutting throats is highly uncivilized and anti-humanistic and btw anti-christian) and denial.

Your turning down of answering basic questions is simply based on the fact that you do not like the answers you had to give to those questions. Man up and admit it.

All in all you are cutting off the two-way-communication necessary for exchange of thoughts.

That is an answer in itself,

For denying that other points of view could be true or should even be allowed to exist is the sign of a radical.

Food for thought for sure, but I won´t hold my breath until you thought this "food" through.

You DO like playing Solitaire, don´t you?

Carsten

[bleivorbei]

Here we go again!

Sorry for having a real life. No reason to get smart here....

Your days must be pretty demanding, considering your writing here at night, but i digress.

I also got the fun part of your statement above, that the man who often bypasses Congress and some other parts of the legeslative protocol, seems to act like a sponsor and judge all at the same time. Wasn´t this the President, who wanted to bomb Syria in order to restore human rights, which aren´t compatible to the human rights defined in the CDHRI from 1990? Is that the same president, who doesn´t trust his own people for owning firearms, now wants to sign a nuclear deal with Iran?

This president looks like a deer in the headlights to many people, everytime a new international problem arises.

He speaks of unintended consequences??

That is indeed the president i mean - there is a lot to be criticized about his presidency, no doubt - still, how about the responsability of western civilized worlds failed politics and wars.

Don't you think, it can radicalize a man, seeing his family turn to pink mist?

No. With this statement you proved instantly, that you are far away from understanding humanistic principles.

As far as I´m concerned, they could run their Islamistic State down there. I wouldn´t care at all.

Not very humanistic, as i understand.

You failed to provide any evidence for your statements.

Mhh, you bring a lot of evidence - but just evidence that fits your argumentation.

As an example I really liked your deathtoll counter. A pitty you missed to put it in perspective to the numbers of death caused by civilized wests - i repeat myself - failed politics and wars in the middle east.

No politics and government have to be in peoples mind on a mandatory basis. With no one thinking about this, how can one take part in an election? Or be a citizen in a democracy? Please don´t express the need to have a lecture on that.....

Nice twist of my words - i did not pay enough attention.

What i meant was stopping the western secular countries becoming the brave new world, they are about to become.

And by the way, the most used tool for this is fear of (isalmic) terror.

... and the necessary corrective actions are to be taken.

What corrective actions you mean - going to war? Only to check, if it comes down to cutting throats or not, humanisticly speaking.

I said it once before:

I have no objections at all against any religious believe. There are good christians, muslims, hindus, buddhists. No doubt about it. But how you can differ between a radical follower and the normal one?

Easy to be answered:

The good ones keep the belief out of society, out of government, out of school, out of the workplace.

In other words: They don´t take their believe too seriously. They keep it checked and balanced with common sense and humanistic elements.

You are confusing, how does this go together with: It is good to be anti-isalm .... so true.

I am not fond to give up any freedom of our society just to provide any socio- cultural commodities to a minority, which doesn´t accept our way of life and our principles to its entirety.

Mhh, how about the freedom of religion - i had the impression, that's one of our societys freedoms.

[bleivorbei]

Dear Bleivorbei,

your post is a mixture of negative projection (nobody in this thread said they wanted to cut throats....instead people pointed out that cutting throats is highly uncivilized and anti-humanistic and btw anti-christian) and denial.

Your turning down of answering basic questions is simply based on the fact that you do not like the answers you had to give to those questions. Man up and admit it.

All in all you are cutting off the two-way-communication necessary for exchange of thoughts.

That is an answer in itself,

For denying that other points of view could be true or should even be allowed to exist is the sign of a radical.

Food for thought for sure, but I won´t hold my breath until you thought this "food" through.

You DO like playing Solitaire, don´t you?

Carsten

Dear Carsten,

you accuse me of negative projection, after one fourth of world population has been declared radical and dangerous?

Denial? To recognize the multifaceted process that led to islamic fundamentalism on the rise? That's what i saw.

I thought we figured, it is a political problem - not a religious one.

And i just don't see, what that has to do with with the head cleric of islam, sorry. It would be to great to see sunnis and shiites agree on one.

Let's have a two way communication - what will the fear of fundamentalist terror be used for?

Cutting down on freedom - our freedom, if you call it that, to own firearms will be one of the first ones on the list.

Brave new world don't work so well with an armed populace. Be it hunters and competitors.

Yeah, not only one fourth of world population is radical, i'm as well.

Seriously?

Food for thought.

[Gast]

Yeah, not only one fourth of world population is radical, i'm as well.

Of course not, but one fourth of the population is indifferent to Islam terrorist attrocities at best. More likely they are silent supporters at worst or simply ignorant.

Be it as it may, our trendy western permissiveness will kill us on the long run. I'm not gonna accept that.

[bleivorbei]

Of course not, but one fourth of the population is indifferent to Islam terrorist attrocities at best. More likely they are silent supporters at worst or simply ignorant.

Be it as it may, our trendy western permissiveness will kill us on the long run. I'm not gonna accept that.

EBR, your approach seems very simplistic. To how many muslims did you talk lately to verify this, all of them? Two way communication, right?

I agree, our trendy western permissiveness will get us killed:

We allowed the CIA to train the taliban, the stratigical hopless invasion of afghanistan - proved by brits an soviets beforehand, the invasion of iraq for al qaida and weapons of mass destruction - none to be found, then we allowed ourselves to withdraw and leave a whole region destabilized, fertilizing the ground well for IS.

I forgot, on the way we allowed Guantanamo and Abu Ghraib.

Then we allow ourselves to condemn and fear all muslims, and the use of that fear against the values and freedom we thought, we stand for.

You think this could help maybe 1 or 2 muslims to develop a bit of indifference?

You keep on demanding, but you don't deliver.

[Gast]

EBR, your approach seems very simplistic. To how many muslims did you talk lately to verify this, all of them? Two way communication, right?

I agree, our trendy western permissiveness will get us killed:

We allowed the CIA to train the taliban, the stratigical hopless invasion of afghanistan - proved by brits an soviets beforehand, the invasion of iraq for al qaida and weapons of mass destruction - none to be found, then we allowed ourselves to withdraw and leave a whole region destabilized, fertilizing the ground well for IS.

I forgot, on the way we allowed Guantanamo and Abu Ghraib.

Then we allow ourselves to condemn and fear all muslims, and the use of that fear against the values and freedom we thought, we stand for.

You think this could help maybe 1 or 2 muslims to develop a bit of indifference?

You keep on demanding, but you don't deliver.

bleivorbei, I don't need no 2 way communication to develope a balanced point of view. Talking to them is to no avail, Quoran demands lying, cheating and braking contracts to infidels as long as it leads to Moslem dominance worldwide.

And no, we don't allow anything to CIA or NSA and our society is strong enough, quit contrary to the Islam society, to overcome such bad habbits.

Bleivorbei, ist not my intention to deliver anything to you to convince you. If you want to exit this discussion, feel free. This is not a missionary thread, its just a discussion and I highly wellcome your contributions.